Does probiotic skincare for eczema actually work? – (S5E10 & 11)

Today’s guest is Eric Koepp, co-founder of Skinesa, who shared all about whether probiotic skincare really helps eczema and topical steroid withdrawal (TSW). He also shares how many “real” brands of probiotic skincare exist on the market and which are the real brands of probiotic skincare.

Over 30,000 probiotic skincare brands exist

The shocking fact is that there are over 30,000 probiotic skincare brands that exist – but there are only 2-3 real probiotic skincare brands on the market.

2 of the real probiotic skincare brands are Mother Dirt and Bak.

Eric shared why there are only 2-3 real brands of probiotics, and why the rest are not “real.”

It turns out that many probiotic brands don’t contain actual probiotics in them.

Many probiotic skincare brands contain probiotic ingredients, with no actual probiotics in them. Thus, many of them use “false advertising.”

Many probiotic skincare brands are also engaged in class action lawsuits – including Clinique, who is currently being sued because they don’t contain any live probiotics. They are also being sued because their live probiotics contain preservatives that would prevent them from growing.

Only 1 in 500 probiotic strains are “evidence-based”

Eric also shared that only 1 in 500 probiotic strains are based on “evidence-based” probiotics (meaning that they’ve been studied on in clinical trials).

Skinesa is one of the few probiotics that can be taken internally. It also contains a probiotic blend that has been shown to have a 90% difference in helping to achieve clear skin (you can use the code Abby5 to get $5 off your order).

Eric also shares the future of probiotic skincare of what we can expect with probiotic skincare, especially when most aren’t “real”.

LISTEN TO THE PODCAST BELOW:

 

Transcript for Part 1

Eric Koepp ([00:00]):
So there’s entire probiotic companies and lines with no probiotics….but they’re calling themselves probiotic companies.

The probiotic skincare hashtag comes up 30,000 for topical probiotic products that are out there in the market. But our research shows that there’s only two or three that are actually probiotics in the world. There’s only two or three probiotic products in the world!

Abby Tai ([04:07]):
Wow.

Eric Koepp ([04:10]):
Probiotic Skincare products…what’s happening is they’re using probiotic as an adjective when it’s not an adjective. Probiotic by definition are live microorganisms. When given in the appropriate amount, live microorganisms, when administered in adequate amounts, confer a health benefit on the host. So that’s like the official word for word definition of probiotic, which is crazy, because what we’re seeing on the shelves and out on the internet are not really probiotics, there’s something else they’re using as an adjective. Well, let me see here.

Abby Tai ([05:01]):
So, would that count as false marketing if you’re using it as an adjective?

Eric Koepp ([05:10]):
Yeah, It’s really Interesting. So let me just back up here again. I know that was a, a terrible start. But it is interesting, right? I just want to go back and just start from the beginning and give you a recap of my personal transformation, right? So I met you, I think, in 2018, right? The national eczema association and the reason why I was there as, because in 2015, I’d read this article that this probiotic strain, lactobacillus rhamnosus, GG reverses, dairy allergy in children. I have a dairy allergy. My daughter has a dairy allergy. So I thought, why don’t I order some of this stuff and try it, see what. I ordered a different strain of lactobacillus rhamnosus. It cleared up my skin condition. So I was like, wow, this is incredible. What is going on? So then I stopped taking the probiotics and I started taking them again to see.

Eric Koepp ([06:13]):
And of course my skin condition came back. I was misdiagnosed. Like you have a little eczema years and years ago. You have a little eczema, and I’m like, okay. So I thought maybe that’s what it was. So I stopped taking it, started taking it again. And my skin condition would go away within four days taking this probiotic stream. So I was like, just fascinated as a blown away that this seemed like a miracle. So I went to Boston and I met some experts there, Dr. Rita Colwell and Alessio Fasano. I went to one of his lectures there. I paid to go and meet them. And I asked, you know, she is a Dr. Rita Coles, an expert in biology, microbiology. I think she’s won presidential citations for scientific studies. So I went and met with her and I said, “Hey, Rita, I can clear up my skin in four days with this probiotic, what do you think is going on here?”

Eric Koepp ([07:18]):
Here in my shoulder, my elbow, my ankle and my knee. And she was like, well, maybe it’s staph aureus. And that was kind of like, my first introduction to staph aureus. And probably a lot of your listeners will know what staph aureus is right? And if you don’t, then you really want to listen to the rest of this whole podcast. Cause it’s going to be all about you because we’ve heard, there’s a lot of insights coming out with the science now that we’re looking at microbes and the skin microbiome, the gut microbiome. Anyway, so if you could pull up that graphic that I sent you, it’s a PDF. So I go to Rita Colwell, she connects me. She’s like, maybe it’s staph, aureus. She goes, you should go. I’m affiliated with this award-winning shotgun sequencing company called Cosmos ID. They’ve won multiple awards. They’re like number one in the world. For your exploring, the universe of microbes is what it says here on their sheet. So what they did is I took a swab, look at this, do you see my screen?

Abby Tai ([08:30]):
Can you see this? Yeah, it’s a swab,

Eric Koepp ([08:34]):
Right? It’s just a swab. So this is what I did. I went to my elbow, which looked dry and I just swapped. It’s just like, just swapped it like this. And then I gave it to them, put them in a tube. And now open up this PDF where you’re looking for staff aureus, right? Maybe that’s what I had. They could maybe have a little eczema, maybe have staph aureus. Scroll down. So what I learned, you can keep scrolling down, keep scrolling down that I have hundreds of different, but here you go. Now check this up. So these are all the bacteria on that cotton swab from my skin. I don’t know if you can, you can scroll down, for people that can’t see this. I hope you can. Just keep scrolling, just keep scrolling, just keep scrolling hundreds and hundreds of bacteria all of that little tiny swab. That’s the skin microbiome. That’s what we’re looking at. Look at that. Isn’t that amazing that you’re still going.

On and on and on. And by the way, we know nothing about any of these. We know nothing, barely anything. We’re just like scratching the surface to use upon. It’s just mindblowing. So it’s like 20 years ago, we couldn’t even see this stuff. So it’s like the gut brain access is what I learned about while I was there. And 20 years ago if you went into the your dermatologist and said, “Hey, I think my diet might be causing, or it might be a part of my skin condition.” They were taught to dismiss you, all the way from the very top levels, The American Academy of Dermatology, I’ve learned from Dr. Whitney Bowe. I’ve read her book. I went and met her in New York City. She was saying, you know, if you even suggested the diet, they were taught to dismiss you.

Eric Koepp ([10:46]):
So that was 20 years ago, fast forward to today. Well, we’re finding all sorts of things, all sorts of interesting insights on the gut skin access. And like, so what I just showed you there, the skin microbiome we have over a trillion microbes on our skin is what I learned over a thousand different species and different biomes and different places of the skin. So you might have one sort of microbiome here might be, you know, for like eczema patients, atopic dermatitis, where you know, this microbiome might be a little bit drier and this is where like psoriasis patients, have a lot of activity and you have a different microbiome, you know, in your mouth and your nose inside your nostrils, on your head, under your armpits. So you have all these different ecosystems all over your skin, tens of them. So you are a super organism, you’re a 1 trillion microbes.

Eric Koepp ([11:46]):
It’s more, it’s the same amount of microbes that there are stars in Andromeda Galaxy on your skin alone. And so the gut brain skin access is that’s connected to your gut microbiome, which has 38 trillion microbes in it. I learned. And so you have more microbes, more microbial cells, more bacteria than you have human cells. One of the things that is interesting about that is there’s a hundred thousand genes to break down dietary fiber. In our gut microbiota, in this gut microbiome, a hundred thousand genes we’re humans, we have like less than 20. I learned that fascinating. So like, that’s why it’s so important to eat this dietary fiber, all these fad diets that are coming out. It’s like, oh, this let’s just eat vegetables and you know, not get enough dietary fiber. Well, you’re starving your gut microbiome. And so we’re learning that there’s a gut brain skin access. So this gut microbiome is connected to the skin microbiome. And I know you had Dr. Lio on your show. And one of the things that he taught me is this what is it called transcutaneous sensitization? Did he tell you about that?

Abby Tai ([13:05]):
He didn’t tell, he didn’t mention that on the show.

Eric Koepp ([13:07]):
So there’s an article here, NIH funded research illuminates the research between eczema and food allergy. We can give all these links out. So scratching the skin, primes the gut for allergic reactions to food and in a mouse study. And we’re like 98% mouse, you know, based on our genetic makeup. So, you know, study starting the mice, and then it comes to the humans. What this means is you’ll be itching and that signal will go from itching into your gut and cause your gut to be more permeable. And then you’ll have that issue going on and, swing back into your skin because your gut is more permeable, creating this like endless cycle itching, gut permeability, back to itching where you can actually cause allergies. It had tied into allergies. So you can, I think it’s like a hypothesis is that, this can cause a new allergies while that’s happening.

Eric Koepp ([14:17]):
So not you’re not born with allergies, you think they’re new. Like I’m the first one in my family to have a dairy allergy, for some reason, I don’t know how it developed. So you can, I mean, you probably know this already, but you can develop a new allergies and it’s like, the gut microbiome is part of that. So back to the, the gut microbiome in this shotgun sequencing, it’s the highest resolution that you can go. Now, you can see here, it’s bacteria, it’s fungi. It’s produce, it’s viruses. It’s all of that stuff living on our skin and in our gut. And they’re communicating, it’s like a two way street kind of like I just explained when I met you at the National Association, the event that we went to in the summer of 2018 you know, Dr. Erin is a rock star.

Eric Koepp ([15:08]):
Everybody’s probably familiar with him, you know, he’s the last place you go when you have severe atopic dermatitis, he has a solution, you know, there’s like you know, there’s like a moisturizer there’s antibiotic. And there’s, there’s three things that he, puts into a cream and puts it on to your skin. It’s like five times a day. Right. so I pulled him aside and I said Dr. Erin, can you just give me one insight and to your 40 years of dermatology? And he was like 9 out of 10 patients that I treat, I’m treating them for a staph aureus overgrowth, 9 out of 10, that’s everybody. So now when you look at this slide, if you just look at that part of the leg, this makes me think of atopic dermatitis patients, because what I’ve learned is that not only do you have the staff aureus overgrowth, but you’re also missing the commensal microbes that are typically there to keep staph aureus in check.

Eric Koepp ([16:24]):
So what they’re doing now, and this is where we do into the future of eczema therapy with bacterial transplants. And I, this is kind of what we were talking about. Right? And this leads me to Gallo which I think we’ve talked to before Richard Gallo at UC San Diego, right? This is what the group found, what I’m telling you right now, all the way back to 1974, we knew like 90% of patients had this staph aureus overgrowth. We’ve known it forever, but now that we have this higher resolution you know, you can see that imbalance, but what they’re doing is they’re taking commensal microbes that typically keep staph aureus in check and they’re transplanting it from a healthy part. And what they’re doing is they’re, they’re picking out and choosing the top ones. So our mucosa is a big one that they’re, that they’re taking and cleaning an S epidermidis and then they’re moving it over to the other leg. And then that is bouncing out the staff aureus. And because those are commensal and they’re typically they’re, they will colonize that area and stay there. And then the staff aureus will remain balanced. So it’s like, that’s the future is like, and you’ll be balanced up.

Abby Tai ([18:01]):
So you said they are, are they applying to use bacterial?

Eric Koepp ([18:05]):
Yes. Yes. So the bacterial strains they’re called Rosario Mona’s mucosa. That’s the big one, Rosario Mona’s mucosa, number one, like they think that’s the future. They’re taking that bacterial strain along with this epidermis, and they’re bringing it over and patients are completely turning around, which is amazing. So that is UC San Diego Gal. He’s interested in that he’s been doing that that’s been 20 17, 2018. They’ve been doing that.

Abby Tai ([18:41]):
You transplant the bacteria from one to another.

Eric Koepp ([18:49]):
Yes. That’s the next, that’s the next level is taking a healthy person. Right. And taking, you know, it’s, but it’s at the strain level too. So it’s like, what strains are you bringing over? But we haven’t studied it. We don’t know. So it has to be study in these double blind placebo controlled trials and they have to clean them all and do it. So it’s not as easy, like as probiotics where you’re like, oh, I’m going to pop some lactobacillus rhamnosus, or I’m going to pop this bill and try it. There’s a hundred thousands of them on Amazon or whatever. This is like, I showed you the swab, you’re swabbing it. You’re finding the strain, testing it for safety and efficacy. And then transplanting it on very similar to like the fecal transplants and putting it onto patients with atopic dermatitis.

Eric Koepp ([19:40]):
And before I forget. So, this is an interesting study patients with rosacea, when they had speaking of the gut-brain access patients with RA. What’s the alopecia, alopecia patients that had the fecal transplant through the C diff that also had alopecia grew their hair back. So when they have like the C diff infection, you have to go and get a fecal transplant. That’s the way that you treat it. They’ve basically cured it with that. This is kind of like the similar kind of topic, right. Bacillus strains to, they saw Dr. Anthony Fauci, which has, who has been in the news. He commented on this bacillus study, but when researchers collected samples from the gut and nose tested for the presence of S aureus, they noted that the samples that contained bacillus did not feature S aureus and vice versa, and that was in Thailand and rural Thailand. So there’s something where, when this ground-based organism bacillus sutilis is around. Well then Staph Aureus is balanced. It’s not allowing it to grow. So that’s pretty interesting. That’s the pipeline really for probiotics, if you want to call them that, or…

Abby Tai ([21:15]):
How does this affect the probiotic skincare that’s in the market?

Eric Koepp ([21:19]):
Yeah, no, that’s what I want to get into. We’re going to get into the market in a minute because the market is gigantic, right? In a minute, we’re talking about all these different articles, probiotic, skincare, is it actually worth it according to experts? Here’s why. Five probiotic, skincare products are my newest obsessions. The best skincare products infused with probiotics. Okay, well, there’s what we’re going to get to next. So I just went over two or three probiotics that I know of that are for topical skin. And now I want to just tell you about the three that I know. Well, two really that are on the product that we’re talking about. Like two probiotic, topical skin probiotics that are on the market. That’s it, but there’s 30,000 for sale, what’s going on. Right? So this one, so let’s, so let’s talk about, if you want to buy probiotic products, number one, mother dirt, you heard of mother dirt.

Eric Koepp ([22:21]):
I think Dr. Lio is on their advisory board. And I’m no expert on this. But I, this here is a bacteria obtained from the soil. That’s what they have in there. The mother dirt’s AOL plus mist is officially a probiotic topical product, and it has a strain in there. Nitro Simonus utropha d23, sounds very cool. Gram negative bacillus bacteria. So that’s a bacillus as well. Very cool. That metabolizes ammonia as its energy source. The second one is bak, BA K probiotic. They have a probiotic skincare line. They use lactobacillus plantarum L B two 44r it’s essential for maintaining balance and natural immune system of the skin. The current for them. The third one is S Biomedic. They use a C acne subtype, H one, and a leaf Sonya bacteria. So those are the three, and I don’t even think the S Biomedic product is on the market.

Eric Koepp ([23:35]):
So we’re really talking, there’s two probiotic products on the market, mother, dirt, and back from my determination, but from what I can, there’s two and B and as Biomedic is close, I think so there’s two mother Durden back. And then the pipeline, which we just went over are all drugs because they have to clean them. And there’s a process and everything. There’s two probiotic products on the market, mother, dirt, and BAK from my determination, but from what I can see, there’s two and B and as Biomedic is close, I think so there’s two mother, dirt and BAK. And then the pipeline, which we just went over are all drugs, because they have to clean them. And there’s a process and everything. So now let’s talk about, is probiotic products worth the hike?

Abby Tai ([24:31]):
And Mother Dirt is a popular one too. It’s one of the most well-known ones out there.

Eric Koepp ([24:36]):
Mother Dirt is cool, right? I got to believe in that they’re playing by the rules. They’re going by the definition. And so just to go back I was fumbling around when we first were talking here, probiotics are live microorganisms when administered in adequate amounts, confer a health benefit on the host there’s live microorganisms. All probiotics must have defined contents appropriate, viable count at the end of shelf, life and suitable evidence for health benefits. Okay. So they need to have, and need to be alive, and they need to have a health effect, a proven health effect, like in a, in a clinical study. So there’s two…

Abby Tai ([25:26]):
That have gone through clinical studies and actually proven that it has a health benefit?

Eric Koepp ([25:32]):
That is a good question. So that would technically be an evidence based product. And I don’t even know, I haven’t even taken it that far whether or not I believe I’m almost positive that BAK and mother dirt have had some sort of studies. I know Dr. Lio is like I said, on the board of the mother dirt, or I’ve seen him on the website. So I believe that’s the case, but don’t, don’t count on it. I’m not pretty sure. So that’s fascinating. So why are there 30,000 topical probiotic products when there’s only two or three, technically probiotics, isn’t that wild. Now let’s get into it about the market here. So there’s entire probiotic companies and lines with no probiotics.

Abby Tai ([26:36]):
Thank you for listening to today’s podcast, stay tuned for next week’s episode, where you will learn so much and you’ll learn what ingredients to look out for to help you learn which probiotic skincare brands are actually real.

 

 

Transcript for Part 2

Eric Koepp ([00:00]):

Probiotic facial essence, probiotic facial cleanser, probiotic acne kit for men, probiotic facial toner, probiotic eye cream. None of them are probiotics.

Abby Tai ([00:15]):

Today. We are continuing our conversation from last week. All about why there are thousands and thousands of probiotic skincare companies, yet no real probiotics in them. And what’s going to happen to them if so many of them are using false advertising for their products. Let me know if you guys have used probiotic skincare before, or if this is completely new to you. I would love to hear your thoughts.

Eric Koepp ([02:04]):

So why are there 30,000 topical probiotic products when there’s only 2-3 real probiotics out there? Isn’t that wild. Now let’s get into it, about the market here. So there’s entire probiotic companies and lines with no probiotics. none, but they’re calling themselves probiotic companies.

I don’t want to talk about them specifically, but they’re popular. I’ll pull up a site here. I’m pulling up one very popular one. They even have probiotics in the name of their company. You know, I’m looking at the products for men. For instance, one of them says: Probiotic hydrating night cream, probiotic facial essence, probiotic facial cleanser, probiotic acne kit for men, probiotic facial toner, probiotic eye cream – but NONE of them are probiotics!

Abby Tai ([03:01]):

So what, what what are the ingredients in it that make them feel like they should call it a probiotic?

Eric Koepp ([03:09]):

Right? So what they’re doing is that technically is a “probiotic ingredient”. Why do you think probiotics are so popular in the first place?

Eric Koepp ([03:29]):

They work right? Like the real ones work technically, right? Because they’re, evidence-based, you have to have like a health outcome, a proven health outcome. So people have just jumped onto the name. So this, let me tell you what these are. So what it is a secretion from a live probiotic, and technically the name is lactobacillus ferment, lysate filtrates, that’s, what’s, they’re putting in these areas. They’re putting lysates in there, a secretion from the live bacteria. So parts, let me see another one here, lacto caucus, ferment lysate. It’s technically a probiotic ingredient, but the lysate is a fluid substance that is produced when you break down the cell membrane, which contains cytoplasm and cell wall fragments. So that’s what it is. Cytoplasm and cell wall fragments, not alive, microorganism with a health benefit. And, you know, they claim that it has positively influences the speed and quality of epidermal growth, better barrier function and skin quality. So they’re really like parts there they’re technically postbiotics.

Abby Tai ([04:59]):

So, so do the probiotics have negative effects or side effects on eczema if they’re not technically probiotics?

Eric Koepp ([05:11]):

Let me read the studies. So here we go. So, the comment here, so lysate filtrate, they do a synthesis in test tubes and they say that these things might or may not happen when we smear it onto our skin, because these are the studies in vitro when you do it, they’re not studied in vivo on our skin. So, some nice, you know, soothing and anti-irritant props, you know, when they smear it on to some people, but the manufacturers, you know, some of them is like, it’s only been done with five people, and this lysate filtrate showed a 47% reduction in redness. So you can go out and put probiotic on your label.

Abby Tai ([06:06]):

And there’s no penalty or…

Eric Koepp ([06:09]):

Not yet, not yet, I guess it all depends like how big these companies get, where at a certain point, I mean, they’re all false advertising, is what it’s going to come down to.

Speaker 4 ([06:20]):

I know you’ve sent me a really popular brand. I think it’s been the forest floors and that one has, they label a lot of their products as probiotic, which…

Eric Koepp ([06:36]):

It’s so easy, Abby, because it’s all of them, there is no probiotic creams, except the two mother dirt and BAK, there’s only two that contain live microorganisms. The rest are lysates and parts of dead probiotics.

Eric Koepp ([06:58]):

Which by the way, I don’t want to throw it completely under the bus because they have found in studies that lysates can be beneficial. They’re just not probiotics, right? They’re, postbiotics so what these companies need to do, maybe there’ll be a big lawsuit or something where it’s going to change to post biotic, and they’re going to have to change all of their websites and all of their information on their products. Because probiotic is not an adjective, it’s a noun. Like one study here says bacteria, lysates reduce the secretion of specific pro-inflammatory mediators. Yeah, so they do have, there, there is some studies out there that shows that deserved could be beneficial as a post biotic, not as a probiotic.

Eric Koepp ([07:56]):

And even they say like, we have a patented complex of probiotics with three kinds of probiotics, and then they named their probiotics bifida ferment lysate, lactobacillus, and stripa caucus thermo phylis ferment, those aren’t probiotics, it’s a probiotic serum. So they use these terms. So what happens, so if you Google probiotic skincare, you’ll pull up these articles where it’s like these big companies and they’ll get doctors to talk about these, you know, probiotic, skincare. And like one of the things that probiotic, moistures and treatments can aid all skin types, but are especially beneficial to those with chronic inflammation, for those with acne or skin conditions like rosacea and eczema, probiotics can commerce skin and better control over breakouts explains a real doctor.

Eric Koepp ([09:03]):

And then, the titles of these probiotic skincare is actually worth it. According to experts. Here’s why; these five probiotic skincare products are my newest obsessions. And these are like $50 products are using the term probiotic. And so let me read you this. So this is really like here’s part of the article probiotic infused skincare is everywhere from store shelves from this store to that store here, here, and here. My mom’s bathroom cabinet in Los Angeles. It’s that widespread. For a long time I thought it was just a clever marketing technique until a couple months ago. When I spoke on the panel at such and such location with Dr. so-And-so a gastroenterologist and founder of a probiotic company, she noted there are many scientific studies proving that skin responds well to probiotics.

Eric Koepp ([10:04]):

What once, and to put more simply in the same way that probiotics help feed the good bacteria in your gut, they can also nurture the good bacteria on your skin. Well, fairly convinced. I started testing out a bevy of probiotic infused products and not three months later, I am totally and completely hooked. Here’s five products, here’s five probiotic, skincare products, boom, boom, boom. We recommend $40, $50, $50. Really beautiful looking packages and stuff. So it’s disingenuous. It’s just like maybe they don’t know. I mean, a doctor, a gastroenterologists, come on. So, you know, non-living pieces of bacteria or you know, called lysates or postbiotics, they’re not probiotics. So that’s sort of, all of these are when you search probiotic skincare they’re postbiotics

Abby Tai ([11:09]):

So it sounds like it’s just a big trend. And also sounds like a lot of spin on words for the marketing and Eric, I know with your company, how tight and stringent you are on making sure that your marketing has to there’s certain things and certain words that you can’t claim or say, and I know you’re really good with that, but a lot of other companies are not so good with that. And so it seems like they are either making claims or it’s false advertising.

Eric Koepp ([11:43]):

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no doubt about it. And it’s making it hard for us too, because now we’re in like this sea of probiotic companies that don’t have evidence-based ingredients. Like we went out of her way to make sure you know, like the first year I tried to, I think I told you this story, the first year I tried to go to the the national eczema association in 2017 that thought I had some, you know, miracle in a pill. So I would want it to like, share it with people like, Hey, this is going to work. And they were like, no, you can’t come here. So it was like, I had to, like, I started to kind of go back to the drawing board and relook you know, cause I had this information and I saw something was happening when I went to Cosmos ID.

Eric Koepp ([12:26]):

It was absolutely incredible. Right? It would be, it happens in like four days. So I thought I’ll just throw it out there and I can share it with people. And I, cause I didn’t really know a lot, but I’d try it. I went to some manufacturers and, you know, you can white label these probiotic blends and what they would do is they would put some of these soil based organisms in there. And then you’d have this long list of all these beautiful strains in there. 30 billion of probiotics CFUs. But then 29 billion would be just the one strain. And then the other strains that you think are studied possibly for skin here and there they’re just window dressing. So they’re just throwing those in like 1 billion total. That’s a few million of this few million of that. So it’s really not even what you’re getting.

Eric Koepp ([13:19]):

So yeah, it makes it hard because we’re kind of convinced that, you know, the way to do it right, is to go get evidence-based ingredients. So the ingredients that are in a double blind placebo controlled you know, study, you have done in dermatology clinics by doctors and then, you know, peer reviewed and then, you know, ranked in meta analysis too. So you can see like, what’s the best probiotic for skin. You can go out there and research it. You can look it up, you can Google on the back of any box, you know, why it’s so important. I think we went over this too, is like why genus species strain is required on the back of these ingredients. You know, so you can determine the value of a probiotic is in the strain. So you can research it, you can Google the strain and see like, okay, well, what was the double blind clinical controlled study that was done? And you can look it up and determine if that probiotic strain or that blend is for you.

Abby Tai ([14:33]):

Yeah. I remember for those who didn’t listen to our last episode that we did, it was a wealth of information and it was titled the hidden truth about the probiotics, because Eric actually broke down a lot of information about probiotics and he actually shared why a lot them are not that good and how a lot of them are not even based on evidence-based studies. Like he’s mentioning as though Eric just really appreciate that, you know, you’re working so hard for your company and it must be so upsetting that so many people are putting their strains out there without much research backing it and making claims. And there’s no regulations over this, which is what you shared last time. And the best way to find a good probiotic is to look for research that has actually demonstrated clinical success in their clinical outcomes.

Eric Koepp ([15:30]):

Yeah, that’s a hundred percent correct. And what you’ll see in a lot of these products, even skin probiotics now, there’s more digestible skin probiotics coming out now, and they’ll put a bunch of stuff in there and you’ll look at the back and see what the probiotics are in there. And they just at the species level. So they’ll have like 30, 15 different species in there. You can’t look up a species to see if it was in a double-blind clinical trial for skin. So it’ll be, you know, 10, $15 cheaper, but there’s no way to check and see if those are safe or effective. Does that make sense? Like the genus species strain? So for example, looking at the back of our box, lactobacillus rhamnosus 8 3, 6 1, that’s a strain. We have another strain of lactobacillus rhamnosus, lactobacillus rhamnosus. So, lactobacillus is the genus lactobacillus rhamnosus. That’s the species. Then the strain is CNC, M I- 4 0 3 6, kind of the nomenclature after the species. That’s where the values derived. That’s where, you know, lactobacillus rhamnosus GG comes from. There’s hundreds of different strains of lactobacillus rhamnosus, for example. So different characteristics.

Abby Tai ([17:00]):

Are you saying it’s important to look at the number behind it as well?

Eric Koepp ([17:04]):

Yeah. The letters and numbers after the genus species. Yeah.

Abby Tai ([17:11]):

I remember reading somewhere that if you see the number behind it, that signifies a high quality string.

Eric Koepp ([17:16]):

Well, that’s also part of a marketing campaign too. So you really got to do your research. There’s a short list of evidence-based probiotics on the market. It’s like one in 500 based on our research, our evidence-based probiotics have research behind them, the rest of them don’t.

Abby Tai ([17:36]):

So where are people getting their probiotics? If they’re not, evidence-based

Eric Koepp ([17:40]):

Online, online for the cheap. But you know, they’re grass are generally as safe and you might have a study for like a keeper. I’m mentioning this lactobacillus rhamnosus GG. That’s kind of how I started myself. But people could take that and you just, you put it in a bottle and you put some other ones, like, for example, you and I were just talking earlier about this lactobacillus reuteri, right? Oh, that’s got a study on skin for the strain DSM 1 7 9 3 8. Oh, this bacillus sutilis. They were studying that, that seems to have an effect on a staph aureus. Okay. So let’s take lack you and I, Abby, let’s white label. Let’s come up with a formula. Let’s take lactobacillus reuteri. Let’s take bacillus sutilis and lactobacillus rhamnosus thrown in a bottle. Call it a skin probiotic because, Hey, we’ve got some studies here.

Eric Koepp ([18:43]):

But we’ll, we’ll go on the cheap. We won’t get these strains. We’ll get these species. So instead of lactobacillus reuteri, 1 7 9, 3 8, we’ll get something else, something cheap that we can throw in a bottle and put together, but then like the general consumer will think, oh, okay, well, this one is cheaper than the, the expensive one that has the study behind it. I’m going to go with this one. It has the same stuff in it. Right? So you get confused. That’s why there’s only one in 500 that actually have you know, studies behind them. And there’s a list.

Abby Tai ([19:22]):

The crazy thing is like you mentioned the articles before, how a lot of doctors were praising the probiotic skincare. It sounds like, you know, you can’t even trust the experts like the doctors for information on the real probiotic skincare is that actually work online article.

Eric Koepp ([19:41]):

Not in an online article by any of these big magazines.

Abby Tai ([19:46]):

Yeah. It sounds like, you know, I’m glad that you’re actually a probiotic expert because you’ve created your own and you’re doing a lot of things, right. You’re really researching and using high quality strains. Whereas a lot of people are making short cuts and trying to do it fast or cheat, which doesn’t always yield the best results.

Eric Koepp ([20:04]):

Yeah. And I think I told you this, we recently won an award by our own industry, which is pretty cool. We won the specialty supplement of the year. Yeah. Thanks. That’s pretty exciting. This is by the, by the next D a word

Abby Tai ([20:22]):

That’s so good.

Eric Koepp ([20:24]):

Yeah. So many things happening. We have recently sold out, so that was a bit of a problem. So we had to put everything on hold and were, you know, made sure that we were able to fulfill just the subscribers who need it. And then had the stop saying, you know, we are willing to taking pre-orders.

Abby Tai ([20:45]):

I always share your on my podcast. And just because I believe in it, like, I know it’s really high quality, so I’ll include a link as well in case people are interested in it. But that’s what it looks like. And I like that you offer the 90 day guarantee. So if people aren’t happy with it, then they can always get a money back guarantee, which is great.

Eric Koepp ([21:07]):

Yeah. There’s the box. And you can read the strains on the back, but yeah, we think we found evidence base strains for skin and put them in a bottle and just tried to get out of the way. Didn’t try to, you know, create anything new and fancy. We just encapsulate probiotic strains from clinical trials and send them to your door. It’s that easy. And

Abby Tai ([21:31]):

I really appreciate that you didn’t include like fillers or like maybe he’s him staring at. And some of the other things that other companies include.

Eric Koepp ([21:40]):

Yeah. We use a rice brand as the ingredient.

Abby Tai ([21:46]):

What’s the benefit of using rice grad over like Maine or other.

Eric Koepp ([21:51]):

There’s no benefit for us. It just is a benefit for the consumer that could possibly react to having, you know, those other excipients in there. Man-Made excipients where this is just a hypoallergenic rice bran extract. So it’s a little more difficult actually to blend with this, but I think it was worth it just to take that out too. So it’s 100% all natural all the way through, just take these probiotic strains from these double blind placebo controlled studies and encapsulate them with a rice brand extract and deliver them in a veggie cap.

Abby Tai ([22:34]):

Awesome. That’s great. Yeah. So Eric, I’m really curious. So what’s in store for all these probiotic skincare companies now that we know a lot of them are not real and contain high quality strains like you.

Eric Koepp ([22:51]):

Yeah. I don’t know. I have no idea. It’s kind of interesting. I mean, some of them are getting pretty big. So I mean, what would you call it? Is it false advertising or is it, is it by mistake? Did they not know that they’re not selling probiotics? It’s pretty wild though. Isn’t it? That a whole industry, probiotic, skincare industry is not probiotics.

Abby Tai ([23:18]):

I would hope they would have some sort of advisor or probiotic advisor who could advise.

Eric Koepp ([23:31]):

I do, and maybe we could have him on the podcast, so you could talk to him. I’m sure there’s probably lawyers that would like to talk to you too about, you know, the probiotic skincare industry.

Abby Tai ([23:44]):

And I’m really glad having this conversation with you because a lot of people in the, who are suffering from eczema will read these claims and these marketing claims, and they’ll be duped that they’re not actually getting much benefit from them.

Eric Koepp ([24:00]):

Yeah. It’s the worst sucks.

Abby Tai ([24:03]):

And there’s not a lot of online articles that you’ll read that will actually share the truth. So we’re, I’m really glad that you’re here.

Eric Koepp ([24:12]):

I hope I Explained it. Okay. Honestly, I didn’t have a lot of time to prepare all this material and I’m trying to sell probiotics online and it takes a lot. But I hope I was able to, to share some interesting information. I know we’ve gone back and forth a few times on the text, just keeping in touch, with what’s going on. So I think I covered everything that I wanted to share. You know, especially in regards to this staph aureus. You know, 9 out of 10 patients staph aureus that was back from 1974. and that was Dr. Erin insight as well, nine out of 10. I’ve looked it up too. And when you combine more studies, it gets a little more complicated. It’s like 30 to 70% of patients based on different study have this staph aureus overgrowth. So it’s not every single person, but it’s most people. And when it’s really bad, I think that’s where the percentages go up. That’s why 9 out of 10 is what Dr. Erin, his experience and his 40 years of being a board certified dermatologist. Right.

Abby Tai ([25:31]):

I was reading an article yesterday or a research paper where acute cases of atopic dermatitis seem to have more staph aureuss compared to chronic cases, which I was actually surprised about. But I guess it depends on how severe the cases as well.

Eric Koepp ([25:48]):

Hm, Wow. That’s wild. But it’s also interesting that they both atopic dermatitis patients are also missing those, you know, those commensal strains. So you’re not just treating too, like with antibiotics, you can’t just get rid of Staph aureus, you know, you don’t, you don’t have those surrounding ones either, either to keep it in check. So you could amplify and make it worse.

Abby Tai ([26:18]):

Giving antibiotics to patients who have atopic dermatitis.

Eric Koepp ([26:23]):

Okay. Yeah. That’s a blunt instrument, right. We just don’t know what we’re doing. We just don’t know. It’s kind of scary.

Abby Tai ([26:32]):

So do you have, do you have any last words of advice or even last things that you want to say to our audiences listening out there? Let

Eric Koepp ([26:42]):

Let me see if I, anything else, let me check my notes. That’s a really good question. I hope it was interesting enough. Oh, I did want to talk about, I think I covered the gut microbiome enough just to kind of a reminder that everybody should eat enough dietary fiber. That my, you know, when I went to Boston, I learned from Alessio Fasano that inflammatory diseases, these immune related inflammatory disease, chronic diseases are doubling every 15 years. And one of the things they’re looking at is a loss of gut microbiome, diversity from a wide range of pressures, one of the main ones being of lack of dietary fiber that feeds these microbes in your gut, these 38 trillion, you lose diversity over time, and you could really get into the details of that. Like I’ve said earlier to swing back, we have a hundred thousand genes to break down dietary fiber and your gut microbiome.

Eric Koepp ([27:47]):

That’s what you’re eating the the dietary fiber for, for these microbes. And then they produce, you know, beauty rate and appropriate aid. And so a lot of these other, you know, secondary postbiotics, if you call them that which ended up, you know, clearing up your skin, having promoting healthy skin. So it’s like so important that we get that we eat enough fruits and vegetables at a very basic level. And for women it’s 25 grams per day, men, it’s 38 grams per day. And it’s don’t try to get there overnight is what I’m trying to say. I’m a little bit slow today. I’ve probably been getting like five or six hours of sleep. Like for the past week I have a three-year-old and a five-year-old. So, excuse me, if I’m like stumbling around trying to find words…

Abby Tai ([28:44]):

You don’t appear that way at all.

Eric Koepp ([28:46]):

Oh, good. It only feels like that in my head. Okay, good. Oh, sorry. I have another thing, which is really interesting too. So check this out. So the gut wall, your gut wall. So like one of the things that we talk about is gut permeability and leaky gut, right? Like that’s another big trend is like, oh, you have a leaky gut and you do that. Well, dietary fiber, is part of that. It helps you know, promote this gut wall barrier you know, by feeding these gut microbes that live along your intestinal wall, which I don’t know if we talked about last time. But it’s 3000 square feet to, you know, it’s a 20 foot tube, 3000 square feet, the size of a double tennis court. It’s all of these microvilli. Right. And when you like break it down, that whole space, that’s your gut wall, the size of a double tennis court and its thickness is the size of spider silk is the thickness of spider silk. So, can you see this spider silk? Do you know how thin spider silk is? You can’t even see it. That’s the, that’s how thick your gut wall is, 3000 square feet. So like that’s a permeable layer, that’s the gut skin access. You’ve got to protect that. So the probiotics, the right probiotics, they have clinical trials behind, you know, improving the gut wall, the permeability protecting against that probiotics can do that. Dietary fiber can help with that. So that’s the last kind of illustration that I wanted to share, is just like, it’s so important to eat enough fruits and vegetables. Yeah.

Abby Tai ([30:47]):

Yeah. Great reminder. And our last episode for people listening, where he talked about the truth about probiotics, Eric also shares more about the importance of fiber and how that actually benefits your gut microbiome as well.

Eric Koepp ([31:03]):

Yeah. There’s no doubt about it that the scientists are onto something, you know, we’re, we’re finding out that these microbes are beneficial. The good in good versus bad bacteria is just kind of dumbing down the, the consumer. It’s not really the case. It’s more of like a balance homeostasis or a dysbiosis. We just need to live healthier lives across the board. And that goes all the way, you know, including stress. Which is what I wanted to talk about is the last thing that’s right. If you pull up that last little image there, this is the last thing. So if you think of our nervous system. Yeah. Look at that. So just imagine your nervous system, and this is just artwork, but I just want you to imagine what your nervous system looks like. You know, stress can just, you know, kind of Trump, everything, right?

Eric Koepp ([32:04]):

If you’re in a bad job, if you’re like in between jobs, you’re trying to get, you know, you’re have a terrible boss or you’re having a bad relationship. It’s like, no matter what you do, you know, stress is going to affect your gut microbiome, your skin, microbiome, everything you know, flooding your system with cortisol, the gut brain skin access humans, can’t operate properly with cortisol, pumping through their brains. And, you know, I’ve recently learned, you know, the skin can produce its own cortisol has its own system, which is wild. Did you know that?

Abby Tai ([32:45]):

Wow, I didn’t realize that. Yeah. It can

Eric Koepp ([32:48]):

Yeah. It can produce its own cortisol and its own endorphin when it thinks it’s under attack either by diet or the environment in addition to your own body. So your skin is amazing, there’s what I mean. They’re learning more and more about it every year. So do some, like, what do you do to stay out of stressed? You’ve got to exercise, right. And, you know, quit that job. If it’s stressing you out, move on to something else. Meditate, right? There’s apps you can do. I mean, it’s so important. It’s something that you just don’t think of. You’re doing everything else, but then, you know, like, oh, why isn’t this working or why isn’t my diet working? And then stress is just killing all of it. It’s like a raging Inferno, right? Yeah. I appreciate you having me on the podcast. It’s always enlightening. Listening to the experts that you have on the show. I appreciate you.

Abby Tai ([33:46]):

Thanks, Eric. I really appreciate you too. And for just everything that you’ve shared today and even offline, when you send me articles, that really helped me learn more about what’s going on in the probiotic industry and research studies like staph aureus and other research papers. It’s always great to read more about it.

Eric Koepp ([34:07]):

Yeah. Feel free to reach out to me too. If you’re interested, you can reach out to me, Eric@skinesa.com. I’d be happy to talk about I’m fast, completely fascinated with all of this stuff. How could you not be right? It’s like, you’re a super organism you’re walking around. You have more microbial cells and human cells. And since your mind blown by that.

Abby Tai ([34:33]):

Yup. Thank you for listening to today’s podcast. Just a reminder that you can use the code Abby5 to get $5 off your order. When you order Skinesa probiotics, there’s also a 90 day guarantee so that if you aren’t happy with the results, you can always get your refund back. Especially if you don’t notice any results on the 80 day. Let me know how it goes. If you try it, I’ve had lots of people send me their testimonials and they’ve showed me their skin getting better. Also, if you enjoy listening to today’s podcast and our podcast episodes in general, I love if you could take some time to head to iTunes and leave a review so that it can help others find the podcast too, and others can be encouraged and find information that might be able to help them through their healing journey. Thank you so much again for taking the time to listen to today’s podcast. And I hope that your skin has a flare free week. Have a great day.

New Speaker ([35:40]):

Thanks for listening to the eczema podcast and stay tuned for our next episode. If you like, what you just heard, we hope you’ll pass it along to your friends. Visit exzema conquerors.com for more articles and tips. Thanks for listening.

 

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